Let's Talk: The Warrior Cat's Mary Sue

(Three Parts to this:
Basic Intro
Dark Doesn't have to mean Sue
Are the canon cats Sues? (Haha, nope.)
I, too, once made a Sue.
What this whole Sue paranoia is doing (And Anti-Sues))


Dear god, do you guys actually know what they are? I see litmus tests, I see the term hurled around wantonly, etc. And I want to bang my head against my desk everytime I see the term misused.

Basic Intro

A special cat doesn't make them a Mary Sue, or the Spear counterpart, a Gary Stu.
  So, NO. Dovewing is NOT a Sue. And neither is Firestar.
A character you don't like isn't a Mary Sue/Gary Stu
  So, NO. Millie isn't a Mary Sue.
A powerful character doesn't make a cat a Mary/Gary Sue
  So, NO. Lionblaze isn't a Gary Stu.
And villains/rude characters can be Sues/Stus.
  So that "cool and tormented" emo OC you got? She could very likely be the Mary Sue you hate so much.

Confused? You're going to have to read on. I'm sorry in advanced that this is a long read, I'll try to keep it interesting. This is actually a pretty complex subject. ^^

Okay? We have that covered? Excellent.

_{Love these stamps}

Let me define an actual Mary Sue. They're bland, unrealistic characters, sure.
(This article does a good job explaining it. Fair warning, once you're in, you'll never escape TV Tropes: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…

It's when the story becomes unrealistic thanks to her that she's an actual Mary Sue. There's something called a willing suspension of disbelief.
A Mary Sue breaks that suspension of disbelief. Why? Because the author oftentimes wants a way to project themselves onto a character. In essence, whether they know it or not, they are that character and/or want to be that character.

Usually, everything goes perfectly for the character. They're special, they're what the author idolizes, they bend the rules of their reality, ect.

...That's the bare-bones version of it, anyways.
Did you notice how I never mentioned character flaws one time in that explanation?
Funny story, flaws are so very, very subjective.
More on that in a bit.

A depressed, emo character who's outcasted for being different can be just as much of a Mary Sue as that one, cheerful, golden girl.
Keep that in mind.
Maybe, deep down, you think that one outcasted cat is just so cool. Sure, they may be sarcastic and sharp-tongued, but maybe those are traits you like? Maybe their depression is underplayed, because you secretly don't want it hampering your character's personality and relationships. Maybe, the looks that outcasted them just look really damn cool to you. And heck, why are they like this in the first place?

And that's why the real nasty Sues are so hard to root out.
The real trick is paying close attention to context and the surrounding world of your character.

Here's what you really need to be asking yourself, and I can't stress this enough:

Is the character a blatant self-insertion? Do their motivations and history add up to who they are? Do people react realistically towards them, considering the context? Do they act realistically, considering who they are? Are they dangerously overskilled, or do they have actual flaws that the narrative makes clear are flaws? And if they are skilled, is it unbelievable that they are?
Do they break my willing suspension of disbelief?

Dark and Different Doesn't have to mean Sue.

We already know about Mary Sue Classic. But, I just said that that one emo OC can be a sue! How can this be?!

  Let me give you an example. Backstory: In a Warrior Cats RP, we have nice cats and bad cats.
....And we have nicely-written characters and poorly written characters.
  Here's what I mean.
  I have this one agnsty and violent cat character named Hailstorm. He's vicous, violent, and evil, so what makes him any different than Poison, a cat who just joined the RP and a recognizable Mary Sue by all other players?

  Poison is a simple black cat with an average appearance. Green-yellow eyes, a strong build (but considering she was a warrior, that's to be expected.)
At the same time, her backstory was ever so tragic, needlessly so. She apparently was obsessed with Death Berry juices, and would poison cats as she went on her merry way. She was a lesbian, and loyal to her best friend. When her best friend was betrayed by her mate, she killed the tom and became a surrogate father for the kits. Then, she accidentally poisoned her entire litter, save for one kit, and her mate. So, she suddenly decides to jump into Clan territory, kill a Clan cat and a passing rogue, and tried to off another cat.
In short? It was hard to play with this cat, and while the player was nice enough, it was nothing but a blessing for many players when she left the RP. I was sad to see her go in the way she did (she found out some players were talking behind her back about Poison), but even I felt a bit of relief as she went on to play less advanced roleplays. She'll go on to practice, and learn to create better stories and characters soon.

  Now let's go on with Hailstorm.
  Sure, he has mommy issues, sure, he's lost said mommy, and sure his life was pretty tragic. He's so dedicated to vengeance and all that jazz he went to the Dark Forest. And, he has a cat (Honeypaw), padding after him to the point where it's borderline stalking.
And then his physical appearance. He's a lean and muscular white tom. But what's this? Oh my, oh no! He's heterochromatic, burn it with fire!11!!!
Even worse, he's deaf in one ear, and just as he lost his mother, he lost his eye. UNEEDED ANGST!
AND HE HAS A MENTAL DISORDER?!!!11!! He KILLED a mean bully cat?!
WAT CHU TALKIN BOUT SUEZ 4? HALESTOM IZ A ZOO. HEZ BIGGA DAN POYZUN.
u betch

  He's a Turkish Angora (well, mixed), a white breed that very often has heterochomatic cats. And one of his eyes are blue, and due to a melanin deprivation, white cats with blue eyes are generally deaf. So, that element is accounted for.
    Oh, and his stalking suitor? She's got a whole range of issues all on her own, but rest assured, not every she-cat is padding after this oh so cool killer. Honeypaw probably just has abandonment issues or something.
    Watershine, the name of the cat he killed, was a nasty one too, and you'd almost root for her murderer as he did the deed.
    But I didn't play it as a means of justice, more of a "two wrongs" sort of thing. Hailstorm never killed her because she was a bully and outcasted one of her kits. He did it because she knew too much and it was pragmatic to get rid of her ASAP.
    He was caught later, though, and that spelled the start of his downfall, and he had to flee the Clan. Despite his intricate plannings, his devilishly badass moments, things don't turn out the way he wants them to.
    Simply put? Other cats where just smarter than him. He wasn't perfect, and he was sloppy.
    And that Angst?
    Well, that's part of what makes him, him.
    That hate, that feeling of self-worthlessness, that pathological feeling of hate, all twisted him inside. Losing his mother, and watching her being trapped and burned, showed him a feeling of loss and helplessness he would be driven to never experience again. He got to the point where he developed a personality disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder. In other words? He's a sociopath, and yet a developed sociopath. His anger, fears, insecurities, and hate all contributed to his character, making him both dramatic and interesting. He's dynamic, and shapes the roleplay in a way that feels natural. He's the antagonist, of course, so by definition he has to have a strong drive on the story. But he doesn't bend the rules, or make the story unbelievable.
  He might have been brilliant, but his father had more experience and was sharper, and their medicine cat could tell when a cat had been murdered instead of just accidentally died. It doesn't hurt that his partner sold him out so that she could clear her conscience and live a normal life afterwards. Well, it hurt him, but that's not the point. xD

  See the difference? On one hand, you have a cat who has no motivation, and just a sob story. Her tendencies to kill cats are portayed as "cool" and "4 the evilz" rather than having significant impact on her life.
On the other, you have a cat who seems cliche on the surface. But when you break him down, learn his reasons and motivation and his life story, you realize that he's a more creative cat than Poison ever was, even though her ways of killing cats is pretty dang cool. He doesn't bend the story over to make it his bitch.
  He just bitched about it. xD

Here's the deal. Is the character a blatant self-insertion? Do their motivations and history add up to who they are? Do people react realistically towards them, considering the context? Do they act realistically, considering who they are? Are they dangerously overskilled, or do they have actual flaws that the narrative makes clear are flaws? And if they are skilled, is it unbelievable that they are?
Do they break my willing suspension of disbelief?

Those are the real questions you need to have if you ever want to seek out a Sue, like I said earlier.

Are the Canon cats actual Sues?

I get it, not everyone likes Dovewing. I'm actually one of them. xD
Sure, she's annoying. Sure, she has powers. Sure, you like Hollyleaf better. And sure, her romance with Tigerheart was a pain in the neck for many of us who really found that the allure of forbidden romances had long ago faded.
But she's no Sue.
She has flaws that impact the story. She's naive, and that keeps her from accepting Tigerheart's in the Dark Forest until he had to admit it himself. She's immature and headstrong, and that's what convinces her to sneak into WindClan camp to see old friends, even if they don't want to see her. And she's not too bright, which brings about a few face-palm worthy moments.
"No wonder Hollyleaf wasn't one of the Three. She killed a cat!" (Dear God, I want to slap her. xD)
And for her two toms looking out for her? Well, that's not an unreasonably high number, y'know. She forged a bond with Tigerheart, and in ThunderClan she's a respected huntress. I don't blame Bumblestripe for taking a liking to her.
Edit: Looks like we have a more in-depth argument for Dovewing!
Defending Dovewing [RANT]I don't get all the Dovewing hate. I personally don't see her as mary-sue, nor do I see her as a "Hollyleaf replacement" or a "bad sister". She gets too much hate because of this, and I think she needs more love.
While I find Dovewing's personality rather bland, I feel like people judge her too harshly.
She is a mary-sue!
Uhh... no she isn't. Not even close. In fact, she's probably one of the most flawed characters in the books. Just because she has two guys padding after her and she has powers doesn't mean she's a cat's princess.
Dovewing crosses territories
Dovewing still cared about Sedgewhisker, despite not being together on the journey anymore. She let her feelings get the best of herself and she felt she had to go into WindClan at night and see her friend if she was okay after the attack with the dog:
Dovepaw felt her ears flatten. Wasn't she pleased they had come? "I-I was worried," she stammered. "I heard a dog chasing you." She didn't dare say mor

And Firestar? Well, I'll have to use someone else's writing, because they explain his flaws better than I can.
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In short? Sure, he's loyal and thoughtful, but sometimes those are valid flaws. He's too loyal to Graystripe to appoint a new deputy, even though all reason dictates that what he was doing was putting ThunderClan in danger. And as for his thoughtful nature? Keep in mind that in the first books especially, it was more a constant worry than amazing wisdom.
Oh, and I didn't like the Last Hope's twist any more than you probably did, but that doesn't, in it of itself, make him a Stu. It made the story predictable, but that's really it. And let's face it, the Last Hope could have been done better. xD

What about Lionblaze?
Keep in mind he was so close to becoming a cat like Tigerstar and Hawkfrost, and only just made it out okay. I mean, he did dream of killing Heathertail, didn't he? Although he came to regret that later, he did savor the feeling of killing a cat.
 And he has character development, from his once arrogant and aggressive personality to a more humble cat that he is now, who actually learns to respect the weight of his abilities. Before, even Hollyleaf was afraid of him. After he went through Cinderheart and Tigerstar and Eclipse, he recognized that he was vulnerable and something needed to be fixed.
And he's not stupid either. In the Forgotten Warrior, who exactly was able to see through Sol's planning, and figure out Dovewing's powers had returned? This guy.
So, I don't get all the hate against this guy.

How about Spottedleaf?
Er, not even close. She and Firestar never really got together in life. And keep in mind who's describing her throught the first books. The cat who's in love with her is the one describing her as beautiful and having a sweet scent.
Besides, being beautiful isn't enough to be a Mary Sue. There's plenty of pretty people out there, y'know.
And yes, she was horribly underdeveloped in the first series. The writing in the first series, let's be honest here, was far from perfect.
And you know what? She's actually a pretty sweet and nice cat. She has her moments where we see she's not perfect (see her more frantic moments in Leafpool's Wish and in the first book of the Power of Three series), and even she can acknowledge that her love for Firestar wasn't right. But she still cared deeply for him, enough to let herself die to protect his beloved Sandstorm.

Millie?
What? Huh? Just becase she's a silver tabby who also loves Graystripe?
Er...Did you not see that she had to actually earn her place in ThunderClan? Or the fact that under pressure from her kits, she can be flawed? Who even thinks like this, anyways? She's not even close to what a Mary Sue is. You might not like her, and I can respect that, but c'mon guys.

Onestar?
He's an ass, but he's not a Gary Stu. NEXT!

Leafpool.
Ahem. People? She paid for her little escapade. Very dearly.
Reread Leafpool's Wish. For that matter, read the actual books.
Sure, she gets away with it for a little while, but her being a mother comes back to bite her in the ass. Hard. To the point where she was suicidal (read Sunset, and see the scene where Hollyleaf confronts Leafpool.) And she loses everything thanks to Crowfeather.
But she does rebound after moons of guilt and suffering, and she does end up becoming a strong and respectable character once again.

Jayfeather.
The dude's challenged by the narrative, so he's definitely not a Stu. He's pragmatic and snarky, and has powers, but why would that make him a Gary Stu? He lost his temper and broke the stick, being blind is a challenge everyday to him even though he's supposedly used to it. And besides, he's entertaining, and far from being a flat or dull character. :/

Bramblestar.
I'm stealing the words from one commenter, but they describe it perfectly:
"Yup, Bramblestar is a Gary-stu. HAHAhaha... This is officially the stupidest list I have ever seen. Squirrelflight was never even described as pretty! He doesn't even have that many friends! Feathertail and Stormfur are gone. Crowfeather's returned to his prickly old self. Ashfur pretty much backstabbed him by working with Hawkfrost, claiming he was not trustworthy, and insisting Leafpool made up a StarClan sign. He wasn't even temporary deputy! Graystripe was officially pronounced dead, they even had a funeral. Brambleclaw was officially deputy. It's like a deputy deciding to retire. If for some reason the deputy wants to be a warrior again, he's not going to be reinstated as deputy.

Bramblestar was tempted to kill his own leader. Gary-stu? NOPE. He was the son of Tigerstar, and had to struggle to prove his loyalty to his own Clan just because of his looks. Gary-stu? NOPE. He and Squirrelflight argued a lot. Gary-stu? For the third time, nope. Even though he knew Tigerstar was evil, he still listened to him. Gary-stu? Absolutely not. He couldn't forgive Squirrelflight for a long time. Gary-stu? NO. He continues to be surprised when kittypets turn out to be good fighters even though his mentor and former leader was one. Gary-stu? No!"


I mean, come at me bro. I can sit and defend fictional characters from behind my dusty computer screen all day if I had to.

I, too made a Sue.

Her name was Demona. And no, even before I watched "Gargoyles" that was her name. I had her since I was seven. Granted, I changed her name when I was thirteen, but even so, she was one of the worst Mary Sues I have ever seen.
She started out as a demon-lion thing, before turning into a human being.
And that human being was painfully dull.
She was meant to be the protagonist to a story I thought was brilliant when I was twelve. And I couldn't say much about her besides, I kid you not, "She looks like me, only a bit prettier."
I wasn't an ugly kid, bear in mind. So I envisioned a supermodel like chick, who shared the looks of me.

It gets worse, too.
I gave her a twin sister, Luna. Who had all these powers and was oh so cool and didn't give a crap about anyone and oh my God I will shut up because I despise her now. xD


I might rework the story someday, but keep in mind that I am not perfect. Even though I can create believable stories with interesting and complex characters, know that there was once a time I couldn't.
Like there was once a time I didn't know how to draw.
I just grew up, and I improved.

If you have a Sue, you can too.

Thankfully, I was a much better story-teller by the time I started doing cats. xD
Still, I have thousands of bad OCs all locked up. And maybe one day I'll come back, and I'll fix them.

What this whole  Sue paranoia thing is doing.

Did you know there's something called an Anti-Sue? It's interesting, really, because it's just as bad as a regular Mary Sue.

Think of it this way.
The opposite of a heavily Autistic child is a psychopath. Both aren't exactly ideal conditions, but they're opposites in a sense.
The opposite of a heavily acidic substance is a very basic substance. Both can be very toxic.
Sometimes, the opposite end of the spectrum isn't the any better than the first.

Remember my earlier questions?

Is the character a blatant self-insertion? Do their motivations and history add up to who they are? Do people react realistically towards them, considering the context? Do they act realistically, considering who they are? Are they dangerously overskilled, or do they have actual flaws that the narrative makes clear are flaws? And if they are skilled, is it unbelievable that they are?
Do they break my willing suspension of disbelief?

Now, an Anti-Sue is basically everything and everyone in the world hates her, and nothing goes her way. The entire point of this character type, normally, is to evict pity for the character. It's just as painful to read, if not more painful, than a regular Mary Sue. The worst ones make me question my faith in the literary future of humanity, just like the regular Sues do.
Keep in mind that their bad luck can be explained without breaking suspension of disbelief, then it doesn't have to always count. Or, playing it for laughs can work in some comedic situations, if handled tastefully.

IN CONCLUSION

Many of you still need to rework what a Mary Sue really is.
Don't bash people for characters you don't like.
Don't go all out and make anti-Sues because you're so paranoid about making a Mary Sue.
And if it turns out you have a Sue? Don't fret! They're easy to fix.

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More reading, if you got this far:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php…
Help! I have a Mary Sue!
What Is a Mary Sue?
The Necessity of Flaws in Characterization
Types of Mary-Sue's
What Is a Mary Sue?